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Approach log
#1
I will log approaches here, from daytime only as that's what I am focused on improving. 

I have deleted Tinder and have faded out from my mediocre friends with benefits arrangements, so this, along with bars, will be my only source for women. 

day 1 - 9/20/2020

  1. I approach two women moving down Kreshatyk and ask if they speak English. one says no, and one says a little bit, so I appeared genuine to some degree. they say yes, I say spacibo, and they say "you're welcome

  2. I approach two women and ask if they know if I'm going in the direction of the friendship of nations arch. At first, they don't understand and ask me to repeat it. I repeat it, and they say they don't know sorry, and I say ok, I'll figure it out. I felt too nervous to prolong it.

day 2 - 9/21/2020

  1. I approach a solo girl waiting at a crosswalk on her phone and ask her for directions. she completely ignores me as though I am not there, but impossible she didn't hear.

  2. I approach a girl lingering outside a restaurant and ask if it is good. She says she thinks it is good and I can try. I ask if she has ever been there. she says no, and I tease her for recommending a place she doesn't know and then eject

  3. I approach two girls and ask them how to get to the Friendship of Nations arch. they don't understand at first and ask me to repeat it. Then they say oh yeah, and give the directions. My friend points out I def could have transitioned by commenting on how different Kyiv is from where I am from, giving them a chance to switch to a personal conversation. I had thought this but was kind of nervous and couldn't think of an organic way to do it — "where I am from there are maps everywhere" could have worked, I guess — but he says it doesn't need to be that smooth. It can be generic. And if the girl likes me, he is probably right.

  4. I approach two girls moving down Kreshatyk and ask them if they know how to get to a particular square. They say they don't understand, and one says in good English, "we don't speak English." the truth was it was a throwaway approach, and there was no conviction behind it, so I don't blame them. I tease them for responding in good English and then say, "I'll figure it out."
Feedback Analysis

Good

  1. I am approaching on the street again.

  2. I see how I can extend the conversations in some cases.

  3. I can see how, when I have conviction behind it, they respond better.
Bad

  1. I feel too anxious to seed a personal conversation still. It feels like manipulative. I still need to practice opening more.

  2. I probably want to target individual girls more than girls in groups of two because it is too much social pressure. However, for some reason, I feel more anxious approaching a girl who is alone.

Ugly

  1. On the second day, my friend and I screwed around for 90 mins before approaching anyone. kind of a waste of time, really
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#2
Day 3 - 9/22/2020

1. I have been having trouble getting myself to approach (walking around 30 mins) so I do a throwaway approach and ask two women if they know where the nearest big supermarket is because there s supposed to be one around there. They say __ and point in the direction of the nearest one, and I just say thank you and bounce out. 

2. I see a woman with a dog outside of a fancy wine store and I want to get another one out of the way so I quickly ask, "Is this a good store?" She is taken aback by the English -- I forgot to greet her in Russian, which I find usually calms them -- and it takes her half a second to get her bearings. She actually speaks English well and says "Yes, this is a very good store" and I say "Cool, I will check it out," but am too nervous to push it and she seems eager to get o her way and is on the older side anyway, probably 5-10 years older than me. 

3. I see a girl lingering outside a coffee shop. This is an easy one and I am running out of time, so I cross the street. I was worried she would be talking on her phone or like 15 years old because she looked young, but she is in her mid 20s and actually quite pretty. She meets my eye contact. I ask her, "Is this a good coffee shop?" and she started back at me and says, "Sorry, I don't know," and was waiting for me to continue the conversation, but the tension plus my nervousness from approaching on the street is too much and I just say thanks and eject. I could have definitely extended it for at least 15-30 more seconds by chatting a bit more. 

4. I see a woman standing on the corner and I instinctually -- without having to use willpower, which was great -- go straight up to her and ask first, "Do you speak English?" She says, "Yes." I say, "Do you know where I can find the nearest big supermarket?" She gives a fairly elaborate answer, with two options. I try to extend the conversation with, "But which one would you say is better?" and she says "Probably the closest one" (which doesn't make much sense). I was hoping she would give an opinion, and I would be able to transition, but the abrupt response through me off and I said thank you and ejected. 

Good 

1. I started extending the conversations a bit more in the last one, by asking follow-up questions in order to stay in for closer to a minute. This is better than what I was doing before where I was just asking the question and then ejecting. 

2. I felt very like in the moment and instinctual in my last approach, almost like I do in a bar or something, and I made good eye contact and had good vocal tonality, and it was reflected in the woman's increased openness to me. I am starting to remember how the content is really just a vehicle for the energy behind it and when my energy is good, many women engage back with me. 

3. I did 3 approaches with women who are by themselves, which is a big improvement because those are much more likely to go somewhere, and i was kind of too nervous to do them yesterday and the day before. 

Bad

1. I let myself go into kind of a state crash / downward spiral early on when I couldn't see any women that looked approachable and got all negative being like what the hell am I doing out here, I am such a loser, blah blah blah. If I focused more on the moment, on my sense experience, and if I began talking to people early on and ideally was more extroverted throughout the day, i wouldn't have to go through the hour of resistance (although what is good is that i got through it and became present again). 

2. I was still too anxious to extend 3 out of the 4 conversations with any kind of follow-up questions, and got none of the interactions transitioned to a more personal conversation. None of them asked any personal questions about me, because I never even made a bridge to more personal topics or anything like it. But that is still cart before the horse. I need to work on opening, engaging, and rambling on the initial opener for a bit. 

Ugly 

1. I keep forgetting the fundamentals. With the women here I know it works much better if I open with, "Excuse me, do you speak English?," or even better, "Priviet, excuse me, do you speak English?" And since I am focusing still on opening, that is where my focus has got to be. But I am not doing it. I am forgetting to do it except on my very last approach.  


Overall a combination of keeping myself in a social mood and continuing to talk to people ever day will help. I want to really focus on just making the opener and the ramble good. 

Probably I don't even worry about the ramble. Keep focusing on the fundamentals. I focus on going up and saying, "Priviet, excuse me, do you speak English?' and then doing the follow-up opener. That is it for the next day or two. 

Then later I can focus on transitioning.
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#3
(09-22-2020, 07:17 PM)I can see an easy improvement here. You need some kind of easy stack after the open. Something to encourage her into conversation. An example would be: \wait, you're not from this city/this country are you'. Often this baits them into an explanation and opens up conversation, 'yes, I am'. 'no you're right, I'm not'. It sounds to me like you're immediate challenge is just to transition them into talking. So think of some stacks that encourage conversation. Nothing gamey, just something authentic and interesting. You're a bit different, are you not from around here? (this baits a conversation about why you would think that, so you can go into her vibe or her fashion or talk about the people you have already met)I feel so lucky to be here. I was only supposed to be here a week and I've stayed for a month so far. (this baits a conversation about what you are doing, why you are there, are you travelling or working)You know where this city reminds me of, I've visited many places, but this is like XYZ. (this baits a conversation about what you are doing, why you are there, are you travelling or working)Which stack you use will depend on the context of the open. Just experiment with saying different things that bait them into conversation. It won't work every time, but you've posted about 10 opens here. If it only worked 3 times out of 10 then you've got a 30% improvement straight off the bat. Dominic 666 Wrote: Day 3 - 9/22/2020

1. I have been having trouble getting myself to approach (walking around 30 mins) so I do a throwaway approach and ask two women if they know where the nearest big supermarket is because there s supposed to be one around there. They say __ and point in the direction of the nearest one, and I just say thank you and bounce out. 

2. I see a woman with a dog outside of a fancy wine store and I want to get another one out of the way so I quickly ask, "Is this a good store?" She is taken aback by the English -- I forgot to greet her in Russian, which I find usually calms them -- and it takes her half a second to get her bearings. She actually speaks English well and says "Yes, this is a very good store" and I say "Cool, I will check it out," but am too nervous to push it and she seems eager to get o her way and is on the older side anyway, probably 5-10 years older than me. 

3. I see a girl lingering outside a coffee shop. This is an easy one and I am running out of time, so I cross the street. I was worried she would be talking on her phone or like 15 years old because she looked young, but she is in her mid 20s and actually quite pretty. She meets my eye contact. I ask her, "Is this a good coffee shop?" and she started back at me and says, "Sorry, I don't know," and was waiting for me to continue the conversation, but the tension plus my nervousness from approaching on the street is too much and I just say thanks and eject. I could have definitely extended it for at least 15-30 more seconds by chatting a bit more. 

4. I see a woman standing on the corner and I instinctually -- without having to use willpower, which was great -- go straight up to her and ask first, "Do you speak English?" She says, "Yes." I say, "Do you know where I can find the nearest big supermarket?" She gives a fairly elaborate answer, with two options. I try to extend the conversation with, "But which one would you say is better?" and she says "Probably the closest one" (which doesn't make much sense). I was hoping she would give an opinion, and I would be able to transition, but the abrupt response through me off and I said thank you and ejected. 

Good 

1. I started extending the conversations a bit more in the last one, by asking follow-up questions in order to stay in for closer to a minute. This is better than what I was doing before where I was just asking the question and then ejecting. 

2. I felt very like in the moment and instinctual in my last approach, almost like I do in a bar or something, and I made good eye contact and had good vocal tonality, and it was reflected in the woman's increased openness to me. I am starting to remember how the content is really just a vehicle for the energy behind it and when my energy is good, many women engage back with me. 

3. I did 3 approaches with women who are by themselves, which is a big improvement because those are much more likely to go somewhere, and i was kind of too nervous to do them yesterday and the day before. 

Bad

1. I let myself go into kind of a state crash / downward spiral early on when I couldn't see any women that looked approachable and got all negative being like what the hell am I doing out here, I am such a loser, blah blah blah. If I focused more on the moment, on my sense experience, and if I began talking to people early on and ideally was more extroverted throughout the day, i wouldn't have to go through the hour of resistance (although what is good is that i got through it and became present again). 

2. I was still too anxious to extend 3 out of the 4 conversations with any kind of follow-up questions, and got none of the interactions transitioned to a more personal conversation. None of them asked any personal questions about me, because I never even made a bridge to more personal topics or anything like it. But that is still cart before the horse. I need to work on opening, engaging, and rambling on the initial opener for a bit. 

Ugly 

1. I keep forgetting the fundamentals. With the women here I know it works much better if I open with, "Excuse me, do you speak English?," or even better, "Priviet, excuse me, do you speak English?" And since I am focusing still on opening, that is where my focus has got to be. But I am not doing it. I am forgetting to do it except on my very last approach.  


Overall a combination of keeping myself in a social mood and continuing to talk to people ever day will help. I want to really focus on just making the opener and the ramble good. 

Probably I don't even worry about the ramble. Keep focusing on the fundamentals. I focus on going up and saying, "Priviet, excuse me, do you speak English?' and then doing the follow-up opener. That is it for the next day or two. 

Then later I can focus on transitioning.
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#4
The advice about the stack is good advice. I wanted to ramble about the opener a little bit before making the conversation about the woman, but with the language barrier and my general level of anxiety in doing this on the street, the stack is better. 

I am having a fair amount of difficulty actually implementing the advice, because it takes a lot of willpower for me to just do the approaches and half the girls brush me off or claim they don't speak English. 

But I think it's a matter of repetition. Rather than post my log of the 20-odd approaches I did in the past week -- most of which were pretty quick interactions -- I will just post a feedback analysis about my progress. 

Good

  1. I am modifying the old-school elderly opener for the smartphone era by taking out my phone and acting like I can't find, for example, the pet shop that is supposed to be on the map. It is amusing to me that I am doing this whole charade, and I can tell the women I am talking to are considerably more convinced that I am actually looking for the pet shop / coffee shop /grocery store than when I wasn't pulling this gambit. It is totally ridiculous but it kind of works, especially when I am feeling shy and not eager to go up and open with something specifically about the woman. 
  2. My friend commented that I am approaching with stronger tonality like I actually want the woman to stop, and I can tell they are more comfortable in the interactions and there is more of a value-giving kind of vibe to them. 
  3. I am able to get myself to do several approaches -- 5 per day towards the end of the week -- per day, whereas before i was going many days without being able to do even an indirect approach, so that is definitely progress. 
Bad 

  1. I told myself I would do 2 approaches today, 9/29, but I only did one and just couldn't get myself to do more even after staying out for an hour. 
  2. I am ejecting too early due to nervousness. I want to keep the interaction kind of pleasant and keep them approving of me (or at least not being obviously rejecting of me) so after 15-30 seconds I usually bounce out rather than continue to impose my agenda on them. 
Ugly

  1. I am convinced that, besides continuing to do the approaches, implementing the stack Steve suggested is the next step in making this a more productive exercise. But out of the 23 approaches I have done since Steve gave me the advice, I have actually delivered the stack on 1 woman. Granted, I got bumped out of 13 of those approaches right away, either by "no English," local guys barging in to practice their English, or other blowoffs, but that still leaves 10 conversations, and I implemented it in 1/10 of those conversations. I could do a lot better than that. 
Next steps? 

It is pretty simple what I need to do. Basically just need to ask where the nearest grocery store / coffee shop / pet store is, wait for the answer, then say the woman looks kind of different, is she from around here. 

From there, I can ramble a bit and transition to where she usually hangs out and ask if she wants to hang out sometime. Like it is pretty simple and easy to execute but i need to actually execute it.
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#5
This is one part that stands out to me:

"I want to keep the interaction kind of pleasant and keep them approving of me (or at least not being obviously rejecting of me) so after 15-30 seconds I usually bounce out rather than continue to impose my agenda on them"

You believe that you're taking value, not giving it. That they're doing some kind of favour by talking to you. It's a difficult frame to work with. Remember that you're a cool and interesting guy. They're getting a good deal out of a chance encounter with you. Don't assume they want rid of you.

Are they giving you some kind of signal that they want you to leave them alone? Can you share what it is.... or is it just something in your head... a limiting belief?

I, and people I know, stop a lot of women and I usually go fairly direct. It's pretty rare that someone just wants to get rid of someone. It does happen, but mostly people are curious and chatty. I suspect you might just have a limiting belief you need to reframe.

However, I still don't like the style of opener, asking for directions. I think that's the primary problem. I'd still rather see something a bit more confident. Commenting on their style or their manner etc. I sense that you're not yet comfortable doing that.
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#6
I am approaching hoping to get their acceptance, rather than because I am attracted. 

I have kind of an internalized belief that hitting on women is thirsty, that the woman are annoyed by it, etc. I have reference points in bars so I can get over it there, especially because the context is already set, but during the day I have to create that context for myself and the belief is getting in the way of it.

I am working on reframing it but I can also work around it. 

The indirect open makes it easy to start the conversation, but I have created a context that puts me in the "guy asking for directions" box. Transitioning off the question is hard -- maybe harder than opening with something direct -- especially when FSU girls are usually too shy to pick up on bait and start asking questions.

Anyway, I am still too nervous to do direct opens right at the beginning of the session, but what I've done the last few days is, built momentum by doing 1 open that's indirect where I don't even try to bait her into a longer conversation. The first one is super straight, like "where is x square."

The next two are more colorful ("do you know where the pet shop is" etc.) and allow me to have more like a 30-45 second conversation. ("But is it a good pet shop? Do they have live animals or just accessories, because I just got here and want a cat to keep me company.")

Rarely do they ask any questions about me, but I can transition and say they look interesting, are they from Ukraine or I can use the weird question to keep them there while I ramble to warm up more.

I find that after doing a couple of these, I am comfortable just going up and stopping girls and saying they look interesting. ("I noticed you are dressed kind of unusual. Are you from Ukraine?")

The more direct opens transition more easily into a personal conversation, but the open rate is obviously lower.

But I figured this out over the weekend and then realized that, as annoying as some of the community concepts like "building momentum" and "clarity of intent" are, that doesn't make them less true, especially when doing this in a new context. (I rejected them because they didn't apply to me in bars anymore and I thought they were nerdy, but basically the big companies are teaching newbies, and with the street I am a newbie, so they're useful to me again).

The most important things -- with respect to opening consistently on the street when you're new at it, like me:

  1. Developing a process for getting warmed up, where I set the criteria super low at the beginning so I can feel some degree of "winner effect" even from easy and lame opens at the beginning of the session, and then that feeling of success can bleed into the subsequent more assertive approaches
  2. Committing my energy and mental focus to engaging with the person (if I even 10% want them to keep walking so I don't have to think of something to stay, they won't stop)
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#7
Day 22 - Tuesday, 10/13/2020

  1. I approach a woman standing alone in Lva Tostoho after listening to my wing complain about his business for 30 minutes. I really didn't want to let him do that because I knew it was counterproductive, but I also value his friendship, so I kind of allow it. I notice that when I am getting knocked in my head by his logical talking if I walk away from him a bit, I can tend to recover a little bit. Finally, I feel good. I lock eyes with a girl and say, "excuse me, do you know where I can find the pet shop" and I fully engage and lock eyes with her, expecting her to treat me good and with dignity and to engage with my question and actually wanting to engage her. Which is fuckin amazing and massive progress. She says, "pet shop?" I explain, "Yes, I just got to Ukraine, and I want to get a poofy cat to keep me company." She says, "a cat?" and her eyes light up. Then she says, "one moment." She goes on her phone and shows me an Instagram thing of a cat shelter. I ask if I can take a picture of her phone. She says, yes. Then she says "ok," basically indicating that she has completed the task (Idk if she is actually asking me to leave really, could just be awkwardness like with a female work colleague that's attractive, I still tend to move to cut conversations once the task is complete, just because that is how I act in a professional or task-oriented setting). But it was awesome because I completely engaged on the initial approach and actually wanted her to have a 45-second conversation with me rather than just briefly acknowledging me and then blowing me off so I can say I "got through" the approach or whatever, which was an issue earlier. 
  2. As I am walking, I see a woman who is walking kind of more slowly, and i slow down to walk with her and say, "Excuse me," and she stops. (which is fucking awesome actually - stopping a girl is a lot more challenging than walking with or approaching a stationary girl. She was fucking into me actually now that I think about it, and I got to let it land.) She has big Bambi eyes. "Do you know where the pet shop is?" She says, "the pet shop?" I say yeah and repeat it, and then she gets it. She kind of scrunches her little forehead and is super cute and is like, "sorry, I don't think I know." I keep going because I want her to stay still. "I read on the internet that there is one by Arena, but I couldn't seem to find it." She asks me if I can take out my phone. I say that the internet is not working on my phone, so I can't check. She takes out her phone to check. I get anxious about that degree of investment, and I say, "oh no, I don't want you to take out your phone; it's okay." She is kind of disappointed that I don't give her an excuse to keep chatting, and she says "all right" and goes down into the underground mall.  
Good 

  1. I am expecting the girl to stay and chat with me. I did a great job of actually wanting her to engage back with me and continuing to ramble when she initially says "no I don't know," instead of just saying "Thank you" and walking off. I kept pushing, like "I read on the internet that there was one by Arena, but I can't seem to find the entrance," which gives the conversation more fuel. I guess I want her to stay and chat with me because I know what I would say, and she feels the weight of those expectations and feels obligated to talk to me and help me out. I am starting to remember from when I did this all the time in bars, what it is like to kind of impose a frame on a situation and how basically the strongest frame wins. It wouldn't work as well if she had to rush to get to the hospital to visit her dying grandparent, but because her frame is weak and she is wandering around -- and she hasn't got a friend with her apparently judging her -- she is getting sucked into my agenda which is ostensibly to get directions to a pet store. Steve, I know you think it's stupid, and to be honest, it is, but I have got to start somewhere, and if I walked around trying to do direct opens for an hour, I probably wouldn't do a single one at this point. 
  2. My vibe is noticeably more relaxed, and that is reflected in the much more calm response the women are giving me when I engage with them. I kind of am ambling up more like I would amble up to a cat I did not want to startle, making eye contact first, so they expect me to talk, talking and walking at a comfortable speed, and fully expecting them to talk to me and wanting them to talk to me and talk a bit. 
  3. The girls I am approaching are actually considerably more attractive, and I am noticing how much better the responses typically are when I go up to women who are alone and walking slowly or are stationary. These women are basically exhibiting themselves and haven't got a firm agenda or frameset on how they want to spend their time, and consequently, it is quite easy to engage with them and get them to engage back. The second girl, in particular, wanted to chat further, but i got nervous when she took her phone out to actually look for the pet store for me because I hadn't actually thought through what would happen in that scenario, and on some level, I felt guilty imposing on her time to that degree which is kind of silly and something I spent time reframing this evening. 
Bad 

  1. The 2nd woman would have totally kept talking to me if I had engaged with her. If I had let her take her phone out and look for the pet store, I could have talked about how I moved here recently and want to get a poofy cat to keep me company, giving her an opportunity to ask where I am from. I could have told her about how where I am from, there are shelter rescue centers for cats everywhere, but I haven't figured out how that works in Ukraine, so I guess I will have to just buy one, again giving her an opportunity to ask where I am from. I could have said that she looks different, and is she from Kyiv or outside. I could tell her about how I read an article about how you can order cats now off the internet, but I am scared of doing that because I want to meet the cat in person first to make sure it is not weird and snobby. Her taking out her phone to help was actually a quite strong IOI -- think about all the women who have blown me off the past month with a dismissive tone, and this girl had full lit-up eyes and was giggling and stuff and listening to my every word. When I told her not to take her phone out because I felt bad about imposing, she was noticeably disappointed she no longer had an excuse to stay and kind of stormed off, indicating that I could have kept the conversation going for a while. 
  2. There were a few single women I could have approached but I got too sucked into the street frame of "they are busy don't impose on their agenda" combined with my brain thinking I am in the foreign cave-tribe or whatever and I shouldn't approach the hottest girls because the big men in charge could get angry at me or something. I got to get over that by basically just doing this more and also by getting momentum earlier instead of listening to people complain about their companies for 30 minutes -- probably I got to do this stuff alone more. 
Ugly

  1. This was sort of implied by the above but -- I am not fully comfortable imposing myself on other people's time. Even though a woman wandering aimlessly around the city center is basically looking to encounter some kind of social entertainment, there is like a part of me who thinks I shouldn't impose my agenda on them or take their time from them because they are better than me or something and that they just want to go about their business and be left alone as the socially-conditioned narrative tells me. I got to get over it. 
What do I need to work on? 

Continuing to want her to stay and talk with me even if it gets a little bumpy. If she wants to take out her phone and help me then yeah she can. That is just like a prop for more chatting and I can ask her stupid questions about her phone and stuff like that. 

Like part of me has performance anxiety that wants it to be 100% perfect or for the girl to leave to not see my like bad performance or something. I got to let go of that. Instead, I can just work with whatever comes up and most importantly keep engaging with her and be willing for her to be the one to say "ok I got to go now" or reject me. It is not a fucking big deal if she rejects me and I can live with it and it's better than prematurely like ending the conversation by not fully committing to engage with her.
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#8
Sounds positive Dominic. Jimmy did a video today about the first 5 minutes of each approach. 



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#9
Super helpful, thanks. 

(10-14-2020, 06:23 PM)SteveJabba Wrote: Sounds positive Dominic. Jimmy did a video today about the first 5 minutes of each approach. 



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